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okay Ias
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Gallaway and me gatri Yan
mascal is so famous that he's been
played in movies and on stage many times
over the last few years on account of
his Central role on behalf of the
Guardian newspaper in landing the big
fish called Edward Snowden but today I'm
going to talk to him about an even
bigger fish at least as far as Britain
is concerned by the name of stur Nicola
sturgeon she succeeded Alex salmon but I
better not take this watery metaphor any
further Nicholas sturge and Scottish
national party now stand triumphant on
the Scottish political states and their
main goal is the end of Britain they are
already making waves at Westminster
where they are the third party in
Parliament dwarfing all the others next
year they will seek a third term as
Government of Scotland's devolved
Parliament and few would bet against
them achieving it even even with
proportional
representation when I first met the now
internationally famous Yan mcll he was a
reporter on the Scotsman and he still
keeps a close eye on things Scottish and
was in Scotland during the general
election he joins us now to discuss the
question whether calonia whether uh un
is it uh ineluctably headed for the exit
will Britain cease to exist as a as a
state I think that's probably the case I
think uh we're much closer to that than
we were a year ago uh even in spite of
the referendum result the SNP seem to be
in a win-win situation they're sitting
at Westminster anything that goes wrong
any Cuts in welfare they blame the Tory
government in Westminster having a Tory
government at Westminster is probably a
better result for them sure than being
Coalition with labor they can point to
Scots and say you stay part of the UK
this is what you get Tor government at
Westminster one of the worst kind of Tor
governments elected in England of course
because the Tories have only one mp uh
in Scotland but even more remarkably
much much more remarkably labber has
only one MP now when we used to uh
regularly talk uh at weekends just for a
catchup when I was a Glasgow Member of
Parliament labor was a Colossus yeah uh
uh with 50 members of parliament and
included in that 50 some of the biggest
figures in British politics Robin Cook
John Smith Donald Jer uh and many others
now it's been virtually wiped out and I
couldn't even name the fellow who hung
on as the sole labor Member of
Parliament what happened it's a really
good question and I don't think anyone
has a very good answer there's lots of
different answers but not one that's
definit of maybe the SNP were good
outflanking labor they might position
themselves to the left of uh labor in
Scotland um and maybe labor in Scotland
has been too complacent for too long um
they took certainly the west of Scotland
uh for granted uh a lot of people put
into the councils and into the Scottish
Parliament were second and third R uh
candidates uh they didn't seem to care
and the kind of people you spoke about
Donald jur went back to serve in the
Scottish Parliament but maybe they
needed some other big figures to go back
and serve in the Scottish Parliament as
well the second and third Raiders must
themselves now run the risk of being
wiped out next year because of course
the Scottish Parliament is elected next
year most of them are constituency msps
they can't really desert their
constituency so they must stand and
fight there uh and there must be a real
chance that they'll be knocked out too
the likelihood is that you know the SNP
are going to wipe the floor with them
you know next year uh it's hard to see a
scenario that's going to change that
that makes it a kind of one party State
then doesn't it mean David Cameron's
already said we're going to give them
Scotland more Powers so they just take
every concession that's going you you
take a a little more devolved power here
a little more devolved power there and
then you reach a stage for Scotland will
wake up one morning and think well we're
almost effectively independent okay we
might not have control over foreign
policy or defense or immigration but
we've got just a bit everything else so
what's there to be scared of why not
just go the whole hog well the that
logic seems uh very powerful uh to me
question I then ask you is do the SNP
want it because of course there are
other examples the Catalan nationalists
for example who don't actually really
want to leave Spain they want to get as
many goodies and as many devolved Powers
as they can they always kind of stop
short of the final push is the SNP in
that bracket or are they really going
for it well there's two snps like oh
most parties there factions uh there's a
faction uh that are totally committed to
Independence and there's others that
think if you can create a situation
where you get Dil Max maybe that you
know maximum Powers short of foreign
policy defense and immigration then most
Scots would be satisfied with that but I
think it's much more likely uh they will
push for Independence they will um I
think that this kind of sort of
creeping uh shift towards
independence uh you will see the polls
maybe a year or two from now maybe it
will be 55% in favor of yes uh
and at that stage you could see them
have another referendum and win it I
could see the the Catalonia parallel is
a good one but I think the mood is Chang
in Scotland what's interesting is uh
there hasn't been a poll in Independence
since April uh so although there been
this huge surge for the SNP we haven't
seen no one's tested whether support for
Independence and winning what is it
97% of the seats or whatever is
misleading too isn't it because they
only got 50% of vote still a gigantic
vote but uh it doesn't mean they've
actually got the support of 97% of the
people they need approximate cause to go
for another referendum though wouldn't
they what might that be well um I think
you know the answer same as me uh if uh
Cameron has a referendum on Europe um
then you know we could use that as an
excuse uh uh you know to trigger a
referendum in Scotland saying you know
the Scots are more pro-european
uh we don't want to leave uh Europe um
so that would be an excuse but one of
interesting things that is that
statistical surveys show the Scots like
to pretend they're more pro- European
but the statistical survey shows that
attitudes in Scotland are basically the
same as in England still a lot of
skepticism there there's a lot of myths
in Scotland we like to Pretend We're
more uh leftwing than the rest of the
country but I'm not never been persuaded
by like that when I was there you were
just talking about that this morning
about the European Union well what their
position would be indeed in case Cameron
would succeed in or not succeed the
referendum would result in an exit from
the EU what would where would Scotland
be left this NP would uh say we want to
stay uh within the European Union uh we
most of what trade there is that
Scotland has is with uh mainly with
Europe you apart from take whiskey out
the equation
um they then say we'll keep the uh we'll
prepare to join the Euro uh so it' be a
strange position where you have England
with its pound and Scotland with the
Euro I mean I know that Cameron doesn't
want to leave the European
Union but once a referendum gets
underway he's no longer in control of
that and the Press pumping out their
europhobia and so on could actually
happen and one of its obvious conse
quences at the point you are making to
me this morning that would be the excuse
for Scotland to leave and uh Scotland
would be accepted into the European
Union then you'd have a small island one
part of it in the European Union and one
part of it not the same of course the
same of course in IR where one part is
and the other part would not Britain is
a state I don't want to use the
vernacular but it's kind of looking bust
and if you'd ask me two years ago I'd de
said this stuff of fantasy but it's not
fantasy anymore but it's also a bit of a
protest vote against labor I assume yeah
it's um you're exactly right it's a
anti- Westminster but it's in Scotland
the level of disillusionment and anger
and I said to this to labor people
there's a real raw anger with the labor
party in Scotland and they they they
were disputing this they said okay
people w't very happy but raw anger a
bit overa it if you go in the doorsteps
of Glasgow or peisley or even parts of
Edinburgh as I did then it's raw anger I
don't know why they've got this animous
towards the labor party well the Blair
years uh obviously have something to do
with it uh though probably not in the
Estates that you're talking about but
amongst if you like the political class
in Scotland there's a pretty
overwhelming rejection of the Blair
formula of war and neoliberal economics
following George Bush neocon foreign
policy and so on none of that even
played at the time uh before it turned
into the huge disaster it looks today um
but there must be something more it must
be the spouse that was
neglected uh and not beaten but starved
of any real reward for their loyalty
over a long long period and suddenly it
flips because Scotland voted labor for
the best part of a hundred years uh
there was one exception in 1950 when the
Tories were the majority party but labor
was uh the overwhelming power in
Scotland for all of my lifetime uh so it
must have something to do with that
Awakening up and realizing that actually
we've given all this but what have we
got um I know you you know these figures
as well as I do uh last year during the
referendum I spent a lot of the time in
the East End of Glasgow and uh you can
see you know things are better than when
we were growing up then you look at it
and you think and the help lot it's not
better you know the gap between the
those with and those without is still
huge and the statistics for the East End
of Glasgow are among the worst in Europe
in terms of health and uh poverty uh and
so you're right uh labors had huge
number of terms in office and not never
really addressed uh there's never been a
crusade against the poverty of the west
of Scotland no and Scotland has an exit
which poor parts of England don't have
they can't leave England although wait
for the Yorkshire Independence Movement
you and masal thanks very much indeed
coming up after the break former Cabinet
member in David Cameron's government hot
foot from the United States where he's
been trying to secure the release of the
last British hostage in guantan MO Bay
the right honorable Andrew Mitchell MP
don't miss
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it welcome back to Sputnik David Cameron
now rules Britain in a majority Tory
government so we better find out what he
intends his former cabinet colleague
Andrew Mitchell who joins us from a
noble Mission as gatri just explained
before the break is a big Tor fish and
I'm glad to say he joins us now Andrew
welcome to Sputnik first of all let's
start because you're just off the plane
how did the mission to Washington to
free shakar Amar go well we were a
pretty eclectic group uh Jeremy Corbin
who's I think fairly described as a
leftwing Firebrand David Davis from the
right former leadership Contender me and
Andy Slaughter the member uh for
Hammersmith uh and we we had meetings
both with the administration and with
some very senior Senators including
Senator McCain and Senator
Feinstein uh and our point was that this
is the last British inmate in Guantanamo
he was cleared twice once under
President Bush once under President
Obama for release more than six years
ago he has still not been released
whereas uh others have been released to
third countries where the Americans have
had to pay for them to go in particular
Uruguay and Kazakhstan and that the fact
that he hadn't been released when the
British prime minister had pressed in
January for his release was a very
serious matter and if this is how
America treats her oldest Ally who has
stood Four Square behind her spent our
blood and treasure in at least two
recent Wars then it's a very poor show
and uh we press very hard for his
immediate release uh I have no idea uh
what's going to happen I think we've
pushed it up the agenda I think the
coverage in America which was
uh which was good suggests that it will
get a greater Focus but it's up to the
American Administration the president
can ensure it happens uh if he wishes
and if he doesn't feel that this is a
priority which is suppressed by other
domestic priorities but I'm certain that
we have advanced the date when Shaka
Amir will be cleared for transfer back
to the United Kingdom well more power to
you and well done for uh trying but I
must tell you none of that really
computes with me because
President Obama doesn't want Guantanamo
he wants to close it he's busily sending
inmates around the world his closest
Ally in the form of the prime minister
no less David Cameron is asking for its
resident back and yet he can't get out
what could conceivably be the reason for
that that is that is absolutely uh the
point and the fact that he has uh been
asked by his closest Ally David Cameron
to forward this release the fact that
there's been a huge petition online in
Britain the fact that four very
disperate members of parliament have
gone to America to represent the
unanimous motion which you will recall
from March the 17th of the House of
Commons that he should be cleared for
transfer the fact that America does not
choose to uh enact that as rapidly as
possible is a very significant thorn in
the side of a relationship which is
undoubtedly deteriorating and this is an
issue of importance between America and
Britain and every day that it is not
resolved I'm afraid will weaken what is
a very important relationship for
Britain okay let me press you if I may
just one more time on
this you and I both know uh how politics
works I can make a request of you and
really mean it or I can make a request
of you because people have asked me to
make that request of you and there's
almost a wink in my eye which tells you
that I'm going through the motions here
is that is that what David Cameron did
or does he really mean it David Cameron
has made clear he really means it the
British Ambassador in Washington who was
in the meeting has told me personally
that the position was very clear that
David Cameron meant it uh all the
indications The Briefing from the
foreign office before we went because of
course George that was the first
question that we asked uh makes it very
clear that he means it and the truth is
that the president could ensure that he
was released tomorrow because the
mechanism for doing so is for him to
instruct his new defense secretary to
sign the form that goes to Congress and
triggers a 30-day notice to congress not
debatable they can't go back on it at
the end of which he would be released so
the president can do that and the fact
that he is choosing perhaps for domestic
political reasons uh not to do so and to
place the request of his oldest Ally uh
beneath those um those domestic
considerations is a matter of for me who
has been an admirer of America for many
years of of deep
disappointment and for me be Amusement
now you and David Davis I hate to put
this responsibility on your shoulders
but the people watching this will know
what I mean you and David Davis and a
few others are all that stands between
Britain and barbarism you're the only
conservatives uh who realize that you
don't you know you can be a capitalist
you can believe in capitalism but you
can believe in Liberty too indeed some
of you would theorize that capitalism is
Liberty what we have now is a Tory
majority government that on the security
agenda on the Human Rights Act and on
many other things is sending a shiver
running through the land as to what
their intentions are you going to save
us well of course I don't uh agree with
that George and I would argue indeed
that it is the reelection of a
conservative majority government which
has save Britain from appalling
barbarism on a number of fronts but on
the issue of the Liberty agenda this is
something which runs through both
parties I mean the worst prime minister
in living memory I'm afraid on on these
was Tony Blair who tried to Ram through
the House of Commons 90 days detention
without charge which in my view
interment by by any any other name in my
view that is a uh a
barbarism that is appalling and I was
not thrilled when the first secret trial
which of course has effectively
collapsed was launched on the 70th
anniversary of D-Day so you know there's
a strand which runs through all
political parties uh on this matter
labor I think when they were certainly
under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown uh was
uh very illiberal indeed uh David
blancett a politician who I ad in many
ways was the most I think most liberal
Home Secretary we have had in modern
times um and in the conservative party
there is a very strong view which I am
inclined to share that um uh trying to
withdraw from the European Commission on
human rights uh convention on human
rights uh tampering with the um Bill of
Rights uh unless it is substantively
better than what we have at the moment
is a mistake so I mean there will be
battles in this Parliament uh
significant battles you've got people
like it's not just people like David
Davis who has a clear record on these
matters um and a very good one it's s
people like Ken Clark uh the highly
respected Dominic grieve who was the
Attorney General before he was dismissed
by David Cameron uh you know they are
making the same point and I think that
this is an opportunity for the House of
Commons to speak uh on an issue of great
importance the House of Commons of
course spoke on Syria I that was to me I
think it was the wrong decision as a
matter of fact because I am a muscular
humanitarian and I believe that
barbarians who uh kill and murder
innocent women and children should
receive the full force of the
international community's condemnation
but uh uh the Syria vote which as I say
I think was wrong was nevertheless an
example of parliament asserting itself
against the executive and on some of
these Liberty issues I fear that
Parliament may have to do so
again now David Cameron has a majority
but it's it's a small one uh you had
black hair when I first knew you you
were a whip on the Mast process uh where
John Major's government had a life of
hell with a small majority because they
were always prone to erupting
rebellions uh you're no longer a whip
are you expecting David Cameron's
position to be all powerful or are you
expecting inside the party knowing that
he's going before the end of this term
to be running free I I think that the
position on Europe and the referendum is
very different from what happened over
MRI because there is a clear plan and
there will be a renegotiation and it
won't be politicians in what used to be
called Smoke Filled rooms who make up
their mind it will be everyone in
Britain who will have a vote in the
referendum so uh for me the pressure
points aren't there uh what of course is
very important is that when the
referendum comes Tores should be able to
campaign freely for what they believe
and so I think any attemp to try and uh
stop uh members of the conservative
party uh having a completely free vote
in that referendum would be a big
mistake and I'm sure it's a mistake that
David Cameron won't make but in general
I think the European policy now has a
structure to it and everyone can see
what that road map is and I think
there's a very good chance that the
conservative party will Embrace that
structure and we will get a conclusion
once the negotiation uh the
renegotiation of terms has been uh
decided so you so you expect no split in
the party over the referendum I I don't
I don't I mean there will clearly be
differences of view on the referendum
when it comes and people I think will
take take uh different views on what has
been uh renegotiated but I don't expect
the awful period for my party which
George was referring to when we were
first in the House of Commons to
characterize uh what happens over the
next 18 months or maybe more maybe less
actually now you were a gamekeeper you
were the head gamekeeper are you going
to be a poacher in this Parliament or
are you uh are you going back inside the
pale no I'm I shall do what I think is
in the best interest of my constituents
but uh I am by Instinct a
gamekeeper um but where there are issues
where I think the government's wrong in
a you know if there are such issues
which of course I hope there won't be
but if there are then I shall seek to
argue on behalf of my constituents but I
made it very clear to my constituents
during this general election that I
regarded issues of Liberty giving
unnecessary powers to the state over our
Liberty as very important and I think
it's something which the whole house of
common should engage with because the
state is not some omnipresent all
knowing all understanding God it is it
is made up of people like us with our
foibles and our prejudices and so forth
and giving the state uh Power uh should
be done very sparingly by Parliament uh
and uh maintaining our individual
liberties particularly in the 800th and
anniversary of Magna Cara which this
year is is extremely important Andrew
Mitchell right honorable thanks for
joining us on this
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pnik and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rling gu well we
asked the question what have Tories got
in store for us in the next 5 years to
which takes replies DT Abby and Oliver
Twist meets The Wolf of Wall Street not
pleasant at all good one though yeah
that's brilliant very brilliantly put we
also asked how left is the SNP actually
indeed to which Ricardo Picasso says
corporate tax down iniquities health and
education policies close hospitals and
schools #
regressive well it's a very interesting
point and you and mcll was touching on
it wasn't he actually the SNP talks left
and acts right their power that they had
now two terms with a third one probably
coming up they haven't raised tax by a
single penny they are fighting to cut
business tax they have lost more than
100,000 uh father education College
places almost play right yes in practice
but not in rhetoric yes that's the point
well that's all that we've got for this
week which alas means that's the end of
the show you can stay in touch with us
on Twitter at rtor Sputnik and on
Facebook you can like us on Sputnik on
Russia today it's goodbye from me gri
and from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous